Interview with John Shipton from Defiance by Peter McCormack – Transcript

In these difficult times of the Corona Virus Pandemic turning to the ethers is a creative way to stand in solidarity with the WikiLeaks publisher. Here is an insightful, motivational and beautifully spoken discussion about Julian Assange between Peter McCormick and John Shipton.

Peter McCormick

Hello there and welcome to defiance. I’m your host, Peter McCormick and today I have a very special interview with john Shipton, the father of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. And as many of you know, Julian is currently in the UK fighting extradition to the US, where he could face up to 170 years in prison for 18 charges, including attempted hacking, and breaches of the Espionage Act. Assange founded Wikileaks in 2006, as an organization specializing in the publishing of leaked materials, perhaps best known from the 2010 Chelsea Manning leaks. Chelsea being a US Army soldier who turned whistleblower and released a number of documents by WikiLeaks, including the now infamous Collateral Murder video. I had the opportunity to sit down with john in London And we discussed his relationship with Julian, the ongoing extradition case and WikiLeaks global impact I do hope you enjoy this interview if you have any feedback or questions you can reach out to me My email address is Peter at defiance dot news. But before we get into that interview, I do also just need to thank my sponsor Kraken the best place to buy bitcoin consistently rated the best and most secure cryptocurrency exchange krakken puts the power in your hands to buy sell or trade Bitcoin. Are you a Bitcoiner? If not, and you would like to learn more about Bitcoin then please check out my other show what Bitcoin did, which kraken also sponsors and I also have a beginner’s guide on there, which can help you understand everything related to Bitcoin, if you’re new to it. Bitcoin is a decentralized peer to peer digital currency without any central authority by not having a controlling party required to validate transactions, Bitcoin is both trustless and permissionless. It is also an opt out of government fuckery and as Edward Snowden said Bitcoin is freedom. If you want to find out more head over to crack and calm. Also, if you enjoy and find out more To support the show, please do leave me a review on iTunes and subscribe to the show. Follow me on social media and share this out with your friends or family. If you do have any questions about this or any of my other shows, please do feel free to email me My email address is Peter at defines dot news.

Good morning, john.

John Shipton

Good morning, Peter. It’s good to be with you here and amongst McCormick gang.

Peter McCormick

Yeah, so it’s an Irish name actually. Some people think is Scottish, but it’s Irish. My father is Irish he he’s actually in Donegal. Now he retired back to Ireland in Donegal.

John Shipton

My mother’s Irish Kelly family. But I believe that Kelly is it like Smith. Simply every way they are. There’s a lot of Kelly’s in Ireland.

Peter McCormick

And if your mother was a Chivon Kelly, that would be a hell of an Irish name.

John Shipton

Miriam actually Miriam, Miriam, Miriam Velden Kelly.

Peter McCormick

My son is Connor McCormick, which is about..

John Shipton

Connor there that’s it that’s slips right in solidly Irish.

Peter McCormick

I thank you for coming today. You’re obviously very busy. You’ve obviously got a lot on. There’s a lot I want to cover with you. I’m conscious of not trying to interview Julian by you and want this to be an interview with you. If I slip into some of that I apologize. But I do want to know more about you. I do think before we start talking about Julian and the case and where we’re at with this is it will be important for people who listen to this just to know a very small amount of the background. Because you don’t share a surname with Julian. So, rather than I explain it, if you can just give a very brief explanation of your relationship as Julian’s biological father, that would be helpful.

John Shipton

Okay. Well, Julian, his mum, Christine married a friend of mine, Brett Assange, and set up a little family and that liaison, I think, from memory lasted eight years. And Julian had a warm relationship with Brett as did I.

Peter McCormick

And that’s good to know. And you have a very close relationship with Julian now. You’re here in the UK supporting him. But it’d be nice to know a little bit about yourself, john, I’ve read that you’re anti war activist. But just tell me a bit about yourself. Let me understand you as a person as well.

John Shipton

You know, I was in the building industry, most of my life And then, as I became more experienced, moved into organizational roles, I studied architecture at the University of New South Wales for a couple of years and then moved on to more work overwhelmed by offers of work and opportunities to work in the building industry. So I just went on with that.

As per activism, I have always felt nauseated by state cruelty and realized pretty early on that now wars declared against civil populations. This is a sort of a foul circumstance that needs resistance. So the bombing campaigns of the second world war illustrate to us that in Churchill’s words, the German public needs to feel or must feel the pressure of war. I think that that’s an unsatisfactory circumstance. So I have them put a lot of energy into resisting wars and the final one Iraq war, the invasion of Iraq has murdered a million and a half people. So it’s clear to us that we’ve become barbaric. I’m not a pacifist, but if, if you want peace, you must be prepared to fight. However, that doesn’t include barbarity of declaring war on civil populations and murdering as many people as a matter of policy and destroying infrastructure as a matter of policy and siege sanctions as a matter of policy which murdered half a million children in Iraq before the 2003 invasion. So that’s really a soul filled, fundamental attitude of mine that courage in men allows them to defend their homes and fight other organizations which wish to plunder their homes. But it does not include the slaughter of innocents in any way whatsoever.

Peter McCormick

I mean, I could probably sit here and interview you for hours on that subject alone. And it’s a fascinating subject many areas I wrestled with myself. But as you said, before we started recording you, you have a job at the moment, and it’s quite interesting that you refer to it as a job, and that is to support and secure the freedom of Julian. So we will focus on that, and perhaps another time, perhaps after Julian is freed, we’d hope, that you and I would maybe have a chance to sit down and discuss something else. But how is Julian now?

John Shipton

Well, he’s on medication. His circumstances are constrained in as much as that he has controlled moves throughout the prison he is in a maximum security prison he spends 20 hours a day in his cell. This is an improvement upon the circumstance previously, where he was in a hospital ward with two debilitated and mad people and spending up to 23 hours a day in his cell, this improvement came about, extraordinary it is. It came about from a petition from the prisoners, three petitions, in fact came, from the prisoners, in order that he be moved out of the circumstance of no society into a ward of 40 other prisoners because without any access to society that can affect your mental health.

Peter McCormick

And my assumption is that this is something that’s been he suffered from for years being in the Ecuadorian embassy. I guess he didn’t have any form of society there.

John Shipton

Well, to the bitter truth is that the crown prosecuting service of the United Kingdom in conjunction with the Swedish prosecuting authority, and the colonial Foreign Office made every effort to keep Julian in the embassy for as long as possible. This is revealed in the FOIRs where in 2013, the Swedish Prosecuting Authority wanted to throw in the towel. This Crown Prosecuting Service under Paul Close, wrote back saying: “You’re not getting cold feet, are you? There’s more to this than a simple extradition”. So we have documentary evidence of their participation in keeping Julian in the Embassy, I remind you that Julian and his lawyers fought two cases to force the Swedish prosecuting authority to bring the case forward as is required in their regulations. Eventually, the Appeal Court of Sweden ordered the prosecutor to interview Julian in the embassy, which was done in the case was dropped. There have been four prosecutors, the case has been dropped three times. It’s been nine years. And only took eight years to put a man on the moon that’s appalling there’s a preliminary investigation of allegations taking nine years and dropped three times during that nine years.

Peter McCormick

To strategically to keep him in the Ecuadorian embassy as long as possible. Was this to break down his mental health to test his will?

John Shipton

It says a determination to ruin destroy Julian, and it continues to this day. Julian is in a maximum… he’s on remand. That is he’s innocent. He’s in a maximum security prison, where in you have to go through a procedure to visit. He’s allowed only two visits a week. Previous to that he was only allowed two visits a month. Julian has no access to media. All of his moves in the prison are controlled moves. The last visit to court in when the hearing began after it was finished, Julian was put in five different holding cells and tapped nine times, three times strip searched and dispossessed of his court papers. A complaint received the answer that this is normal practice. I presume it was normal practice in desperate places like Nazi Germany but it ought not to be normal practice in the United Kingdom, so it’s a deliberate effort to isolate Julian from his support and continue the ceaseless psychological torture, that Niels Melzer the rapporteur on torture from the United Nations has documented and submitted to the Swedish prosecuting authority and the Crown Prosecuting Service.

Peter McCormick

You get to talk to Julian, I’m assuming, and I’m assuming you get to see him. How has his mental health changed over the years? And is he able to do anything to protect himself? You know, because I listened to two interviews with him on the way down to here just to hear him again and their old interviews and he was very articulate. He’s very detailed in his response as to the questions, how is he now?

John Shipton

Well, he is fighting for his life. So it tends to focus the mind on your immediate problems. However, nine years of isolation and increasing trajectory and intensity of psychological torture, this is documented by two experts on psychological torture doctors and Nils Melzer, an expert, take their toll both physically and mentally. And it takes a long, long while to recover. The Crown Prosecution Service and colonial Foreign Office are only interested in one thing expediency within their relationship with the United States Department of Justice, and that expediency, in no way considers the human rights of Julian Assange, or the ordinary due process regulations that govern those two institutions. They’re just not interested. What they’re interested in is the expediency of their relationship with the United States and the Justice Department in Washington.

Peter McCormick

What is it, john, like for you being the father of Julian? And how do you see him as a human, you know, someone like myself would see him as somebody who’s influenced the world, changed the world, influenced how we see the behavior of the state. Some of the argerious things that happened that we weren’t previously aware of, I wouldn’t say with a perfect track record, but a very interesting track record and somebody I hold him for many reasons in high regard, but but you’re his father. How do you see him in this world and what is it like for you being his father going through this experience?

John Shipton

You know, Julian is a sweet natured man, you know, and funny, also has this capacity to be able to give you information without sounding like he’s lecturing you, you know, he simplifies it and it becomes, it feels a mutual effort, even though he’s, you know, outlining something that he knows well so that that’s a lovely method of teaching. Very attractive that you, you don’t feel you being lectured. He is no longer funny. But now he will laugh at wry jokes. And he’s prematurely aged and lost about 15 kilos, his weight has stabilized now fortunately. So these what is like for me, Well, you know, very proud of Julian and the tremendous gift… Without information without facts, without knowing where the sun comes up and goes down again, we’re pretty lost. And without having facts to chat amongst ourselves and filter out actuality we’re pretty lost. So Julian, and WikiLeaks have given to us access to materials that will show us what sordid deals that our government has made with other governments, who is likely to betray us whether murders have taken place who did them so we can see. I’ll give you some good examples, just the short, the Chagos islanders were dispossessed and taken into Mauritius dumped there all of them. In order that the UK Government give land, an island, to the United States to build the Air Force Base called Diego Garcia with the information in the cables, which is searchable on the WikiLeaks site, the Chagos islanders were able to take a case before the International Court of Justice and win there are a good few examples of this, where cables or information on WikiLeaks has been used in cases up to the supreme court level in the United Kingdom, very, very important gift. It allows us to know the geopolitical disposition of the world and how it came about. Very important if you’re going to make any decisions whatsoever for yourself and your family and your community. So I have full of admiration for the the access to those great, profound gifts. That’s my position. You know. I admire Julian immensely. And the group that he works with equally.

Peter McCormick

But as his father, you’ve watched him be put through quite an experience these last few years. And as a very minor example, I mentioned before we start I started I just been out to Venezuela and when I told my father he didn’t want me to go. He just said don’t go, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth the risk, are there times where you’ve wished Julian would act differently, or has it come to be the situation where you have had to let him go and make his own decisions.

John Shipton

Oh I never. My family doesn’t involve themselves with each other in that way. I don’t we don’t give each other advice. We just relate to how life experiences affected us. And if you, whatever adventure you, within moral grounds, whatever adventure you embark upon, you have… we support each other. So to illustrate none of the men other than Julian’s brothers are half brothers, or Julian have ever complained to me about their circumstance, even if they’ve been in pretty bad circumstances like Julian or some other, like Gabriel, not once, not even, not even last Christmas. Last Christmas when Julian was, you know, quite isolated, completely isolated in the Embassy. No complaint, we sat down and had Christmas dinner together. And, as usual, we gossip about our children and their mothers, friends, and so on. So the warmth of ordinary human relationships is what fills most of our conversation. And then after that, we speak about practical methods. You know, where I’m going next or who I could see to advance his case.

Peter McCormick

You must worry about him though.

John Shipton

Well you know when… you’ll probably have the experience yourself where you have children that you begin your worries, and they don’t stop.

Peter McCormick

So I have I mean, I’ve got a 15 year old son, nine year old daughter and I was chatting to my dad about this because when I was, I was about 10. My dad was 40, I saw this big grown man I looked up to. And now I’m 40. And I don’t feel like I am that big grown man. I still feel like my dad is and I said that to my dad. And he said, Look, the funny thing is, you never stopped parenting because Pete, I’m always 30 years ahead of you. So wherever you’re at, I’ve had 30 years more experience. So you’re always going to be coming to me, and he made that point to me and I guess, do you have that relationship? Does Julian come to you for advice still?

John Shipton

No never! None of my children Come to me for advice, or if I’m tempted by vanity to give advice they put in a straight holt to that.

Peter McCormick

Just referring back to when you’ve talked about the information that Julian’s made publicly available. Some people have criticized certain information that was made public, under the name of journalism, that the release of certain people’s names and such was highly risky. And it revealed sources that maybe shouldn’t have been. That’s one of the main criticisms I’ve seen of Julian. And, you know, I go back and forth with this. But the question I’m really coming to is within the sphere of the activity that Julian has been involved in, do you ever believe that a line has been crossed? Or do you think there is a rule of law that that needs respect and in certain areas that maybe hasn’t been.

John Shipton

Well, specific to what Wikileaks and Julian have done, the criticism that you mentioned is a really good question. It was answered comprehensively in the second day of hearing in the court recently, by the defense, that in the first place, the cables were being redacted and examined with Julian in cooperation with 90 other media organizations, and the State Department and the Americans. The data, the dumping of the entire cache of the cables came about when a man named David Leigh and Luke Harding publish the book with the passphrase as the heading of a chapter, and in the index, the password was referenced. A betrayal, of declaration by David Leigh who received the passphrase under a promise that he would only use it for The Guardian newspaper, but he immediately passed it on to the New York Times I mean it is just squalid, fortunately now retired. So, the passphrase being out there was picked up by a German newspaper Freitag and then to Spiegel, and finally, Cryptome an anti secrecy organization based in New York. The cables were published the case in its entirety by Cryptome. Julian, meanwhile, had rang the State Department and said they’re out there that they’ve been released by, the passphrase has been released by Leigh and they’re out there. But his warnings were ignored. It’s just a gross lie. The other day I was questioned on this by a person who quoted some officials from the United States, saying that this had endangered sources and so on. I pointed out to them that was simply a lie. WikiLeaks and Julian didn’t release the cache. I also pointed out that it’s nauseating, beyond obscene, grotesque that these officials who have involved themselves in the supervision of the destruction of Iraq and seven other countries, but let’s say just Iraq, the murder of a million or so people, poor things, criticize falsely, Julian. It’s just so grotesque, who’s been locked up for 10 years. And what he could pick up was a pencil or press a key on the computer. It’s beyond grotesque… The English language is, well, in my capacity of it, can’t stretch far enough to put those two things together, a man who handling a pencil locked up for nine years criticized and accused of maybe committing a crime by people who have committed war crimes and destroyed entire countries and just like, how do you cope with that sort of stuff from these people who, how are they actually get jobs, these demoralized robots that wander around the Washington beltway and get them utterances into the television station to deceive and lie, just beyond grotesque.

Peter McCormick

You obviously have a long history of disdain for governments and politicians and the powers that be.

John Shipton

I don’t, I want to correct that if I may I, I Don’t, I understand organizations, I understand that they can be fresh, clean and attend to the legislation carefully and accurately. I understand that that is a possibility, and I insist in my work or agitation that that happens, but we are now in a period of astonishing corruption. There is the City of London holds in trust in six offshore tax havens the equivalent in private money of the entirety of the continent of Africa’s public debt, more money than the entirety of… out sourced from Africa. In semi private accounts, you know, the facilitation of crime for the profit of the City of London, it’s just nauseating. And there are laws to prevent this. Plenty of laws that can be applied but they’re just not applied. We are embroiled in an era of astonishing corruption. The treatment of Julian is one example. Oh sorry, an icon of that corruption of administration of regulations and laws. It sounds as though you know, we’re in, you know, I’m describing sort of a hell on Earth. I don’t want to bring despair to anybody but just this is the circumstances that we find ourselves in. And you find fermentation throughout the entire world to resist it and governments overthrown and the people, social democrat parties everywhere throughout the world are rejected because they’re not any longer social democrat parties. The right is the populist parties rise up to attempt To right this situation, sometimes they’re sincere, other times they’re not. But you can, this fermentation will produce the changes that are required because under the current circumstances, the societies will become like France ungovernable.

Peter McCormick

Why do you think we’ve got to this stag you referred to, I think twice, astonishing levels of corruption. Do you think this is just a fault of human nature and we’ve lost the checks and balances?

John Shipton

Well, you know, human nature is pretty variable and it adopts has to adapt and adopt to circumstances that it finds itself in. But I think, I feel that things are in cycles, you know that, but the cycles are very broad. And the repair process has started. Over the last 10 years, the United States has with vassals, including the United Kingdom has rewritten all of its extradition treaties to the advantage of the United States. So the United States doesn’t allow extradition for political offenses. But that’s because it attracts and calls into itself activists who can destable or work against the current government in a state that they currently don’t like. So, this enables the harvesting by judicial abduction of journalists, publishers and publications of one avenue, the other avenue of technicians Meng Wanzhou of Huawei. Mike Lynch, of the United Kingdom […] and Ola Binny in Ecuador, an internet genius. The other avenue is the Tuesday Kill List as it was known as under Obama, 446 people extra judicially murdered over Obama’s regime, it is still in use. The murder of Suleimani the other day, invited to a peace conference being murdered with seven other men. So, these are means of disciplining vassal states that the United States uses. Also, this is an area that I’m not completely familiar with. But the trade agreements under the TPP, require that national laws be subject or surrender to trade agreements between corporations. So a corporation may have a subsidiary in France, but its origin is in the United States. If France makes a law as Mexico did that Coca Cola has too much sugar in it and can’t be sold above a certain amount of sugar. The corporation can launch an action against the government to its own benefit and have the nation state fined I think from memory, Coca Cola launched such an action against the Mexican government and won 80 million dollars, even though the nation of Mexico is intent upon the collective health of the people of Mexico. So these three great avenues, the repression of publications, the harvesting of technology, the murder of those that they don’t like extra judicially and the enforcing of corporate agreements over and above national preferences.

Peter McCormick

So you put Suleimani there, a very interesting point. He was essentially assassinated. And I followed a lot of the coverage of that as well, you know, a man himself, who also has many critics, has facilitated, we could, you could argue, destabilizing force in the Middle East as well. Do you ever see scenarios where intervention is right is justified? example I would give would possibly be when Vietnam went into Cambodia, which felt like to me or the situation where that would have been a justified situation. What is more of a broader question? Do you see a need in the world we live in to have a military and do you think there are situations where there really is justified to go in and intervene? Or do you believe that every single nation should be sovereign and it’s down to the people of their country?

John Shipton

Well, with internal affairs of course it’s down to the people within the country within the nation state. Yeah, that’s very important. It was established in Germany a few hundred years ago. After the 30 Years War, very important to make your own decisions and look after your people, you know, and foster your culture. So, and then, arrangements between nations are governed by the interests and as a collective group, they make laws of how to go about furthering their interests in civilized discourse. There are times when disputes, because of history or because of phenomena that we don’t understand or because of agitations that rocket through an entire society, that those laws and regulations become disused. But we have set up the United Nations in order to make for the most part civilized discourse. And for the most part, you could see these mechanisms work for you had SALT-2 and SALT-1, Strategic Arms Limitation Treaties and many other treaties that govern relationships between states, very important, vital in fact.

Peter McCormick

But do you think there are scenarios where intervention is justified?

John Shipton

Well, if it’s under the auspices of the United Nations I Imagine that intervention can come about yes. But it must be a collective, a collective decision of the of the nation states representing the people or assisting in righting a heinous situation.

Peter McCormick

Sometimes feel myself following the United Nations that the the structure of the permanent members voting rights on the Security Council almost makes it impossible for certain decisions to be made because we often see it’s usually a Russia versus United States opinion on it doesn’t matter whether we’re, what part of the world we’re looking at, and it feels like it’s ineffective now in making decisions because of that. Do you share those frustrations, does it not worry you?

John Shipton

No, you know, that’s a human construction that is not perfect, but it’s better than not being pretty clear it’s better than it not being it’s better that they go and argue and toss there, than use Atom bombs or whatever, launch another invasion although the United States probably can never launch another invasion. And, and Russia can’t project power. It’s just has its own area that it can look after successfully. I, just, look, I like this statement. If you want peace, be prepared to fight. And secondly, the Heroctitis’ observation or Heraclitus, if you want: “War is the mother of all things”, that doesn’t necessarily mean fighting your neighboring state. What it means is that the battle ‘within’ is war to settle parts of the soul or to learn patience or to learn faith in life or to learn how to order your affairs so that you don’t have unnecessary conflict with others, all of those very difficult things, particularly patience and particularly faith in life they are internal wars, and they’ll be the mother of how to approach difficulties in life and how to love your friends and family more deeply.

Peter McCormick

Just gonna revert back to Julian because that’s what we’re here about. Has Julian changed your worldview or your opinion significantly, is anything he’s done, shifted your worldview significantly affected your opinion on anything.

John Shipton

Well, yes. As you know, like, Trafigura dumping E waste off the coast of Africa, East coasts of Africa and the consequences, the coastal villages, suffering from environmental poison was struck me as just where you can’t go lower than that, though I didn’t, up to that stage. Think that people would embark upon that sort of foul venture. And what has happened to Julian has changed my expectations from government. Government will only obey its own regulations if we absolutely insist they do. As the citizens, we have to, we are now forced to absolutely insist that they are obbey their own regulations and forego the privilege of disobeying their own regulations, because it’s a privilege that states like, you know.

Peter McCormick

And I guess you’re here you’re referring to the UK government’s

John Shipton

Well, all of them, my own government.

Peter McCormick

Well, yes, the Australian Government, as you know, one of the things you have when you work in the world of bitcoin is you have this eye on this kind of dystopian Orwellian future that seems to be playing out and I’ve ever observed in Australia, the attacks on the Free Press. Just many other things which I find very surprising for, for knowing Australians having met Australians in my life to see the path that’s going down, but it is something that’s playing out. I find in most western countries, the UK I’m very concerned about infringement on our civil liberties, the use of surveillance technology, the attack on free speech I feel like we’re heading down a very, very bad path here, but specifically in reference to Julian, what are things that the UK government are not being held to and people listening to this what should they be concerned about?

John Shipton

Julian has done… is innocent… so the United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention made a declaration that Julian was arbitrarily detained in the United Kingdom and that Julian ought to be able to travel across the United Kingdom and to take up the asylum that Ecuador had offered, which the United Kingdom refused. In February 2018, they brought out a supplementary report in even firmer language. The United Kingdom appealed and the appeal failed. So that’s one. The next is the rapporteur on torture. Nils Melzer’s report describing one after the other after the other, the due process misfeasance malfeasance, distortions, the involvement of the Crown Prosecuting Service with the Swedish Prosecuting Authority in a conspiracy documented by FOIRs to keep Julian banged up in the Ecuadorian embassy forever, or until he had to be carried out on a litter. These are deliberate, absolutely deliberate distortions. The great… it’s a magnificent gift the English peoples made to world civilization was the law as a shield between the people and the sovereign, it works both ways. The sovereign or the state has to obey the law, and the people have to obey the law. That arrangement is a tremendous gift to the world to all civilized, civilizational gift, par excellence. that gift is progressively being disregarded. And we as people, as citizens, are required to insist that our elites obey that fundamental relationship between the state and the people. The law is a shield. Now, in the case of Julian and others, that shield has been turned into a weapon against people. So this is what we must rectify. Very simple thing the other day in court. The Magna Carta was quoted it’s 790 years old, I think it was quoted as an instrument still in force it still has the force of law. So we must insist that the government, our government obey this. That’s their rule. That’s what they are required to do. The other thing, which is a bit more difficult, but is our secret services are there to ensure that , excess, or one of their duties and obligations, is to ensure that excessive leverage is not placed against parliamentarians and Cabinet members. But they seem to have turned it on its head and use, in many circumstances, excessive leverage, to embarrass or to manipulate Parliaments and civil servants, and governments. So we have to begin, sorry, I don’t like the word ‘have to’ but we are required as citizens to insist that our secret services protect our members of government, our elites from excessive leverage from the human mistakes that we all make, our secret services have to ask that they resign and protect them from excessive leverage by others who are in possession of that sort of information. So there’s two elements really important. The Magna Carta is still exists, it’s still a living document. It’s still enshrined in the laws of the United Kingdom. It is a shield, a substantial protection a great civilizational gift that protects the people from the sovereign and orders the sovereign to obey those laws and orders the people to similarly obey those laws, we are required to simply say to our governments Well, those are the laws that you exist under and we want you to obey.

Peter McCormick

Okay. Could you update us on the current legal position? We’ve obviously had the first stage of the extradition hearings. Can you talk me through what happened? Where we are currently.

John Shipton

On the first day, the prosecution outlined, stated that was a simple case of criminality that there was no political reasons. There’s no, no political circumstance, because it’s in the treaty that you you know, if it’s a political matter, you can’t be extradited, so they insist he was just a common criminal. And they also insisted an oddity that because the 2003 treaty between the United States United Kingdom ratified in 2007, didn’t contain the wording “no extradition for political reasons” that the parliament consequently didn’t want, which is very difficult that that, you know, minute doesn’t make sense because the ratification of a treaty has to blend with local laws within the laws of the United Kingdom. So it just simply doesn’t make sense. So those two elements. And also, of course, they trotted out that stuff again how the data is what they call the data dumping endangered sources is ridiculous because Robert Gates, in testimony before Congress, ex Secretary defense stated that is it embarrassing? Yes. Is it awkward? Yes. Did it cause us any damage? No. There are many other such statements. So the American case is the fraud against the court. A complete fraud, no foundations in any direction. The surrender last week of the United States to the Taliban, not even a state instrumentality in Doha signing peace treaty. An 18 year long war that everybody knew was filing in 2010 when Wikileaks released the Iraq War files, failing in 2010, signed a peace treaty with the Taliban, not even a state instrumentality of Afghanistan, leaving out of the negotiations, the Afghani government, the current, Afghan government, most extraordinary like, sort of a farce really, but you can see how, if I can describe this carefully, in 2010, the Afghan war files are released. They’re in searchable forms slowly from 2010 onwards the smart phone, and the laptop became common to everybody. So you can search. So the permutation of the technology, and sorry, the filtering in of the technology and the permutation of the facts in the Iraq War file, and the unfolding of history, the continuing unfolding of history allowed it to become common knowledge that the Iraq War, the Afghan war was a failure. That there was no possibility of the United States and NATO rebuilding Iraq was just impossible. So it’s become colony. So the historical resistance to the ongoing participation in the Afghan war becomes an attribute of the presidential election race. So Mr. Trump seeks a way out of Afghanistan. So this is I think I’ve described that fairly clearly that the Wikileaks releasing and Chelsea and Julian releasing the Afghan war files, the increase in the use of the internet and its facilities. The passing of further history showing more murders of wedding parties and funeral cortege have clearly demonstrated to all of us in a historical fashion that it’s over. It’s time to go, that it was never a good thing in the first So, this is a magnificent gift of Wikileaks and engineering marvel, of the internet and the unfolding of history have began to bring to an end an unnecessary involvement of the United States and its government in the destruction of Afghanistan.

Peter McCormick

Okay, so

John Shipton

Answer that one.

Peter McCormick

Well, so it comes to that point that all information is free. We have a better way to judge the world and judge the decision making. Like it’s the the importance of transparency, to see behind the duplicity, yes, of our leaders. I mean, one of the most fascinating ones was the release of the DNC emails and some of the double dealings there. You know, it exposes or holds people to a higher standard if their communications and their behaviors are transparent.

John Shipton

The, you know, the crumbling facade, the the Clinton Foundation where bit by bit, you know that it becomes transparent. Piece by piece we see these people for what they actually are and Mrs. Clinton ran around the world selling participation in decision making for money and made decisions for you know donations, totaling $1.5 billion, the Australian Government encouraged by an ex foreign ministers name. I like to forget Alexander Downer. He encouraged his own government to give 25 million plus a bit more to the Clinton Foundation. And then immediately Mr. Trump was elected, that gift from the Australian Government was cancelled. And these people, this rotting facade of criminality. That was the that was the Clinton Foundation and its relationship with the DNC. It’s a I mean, it’s a crippling burden upon the American body politic. In my view.

Peter McCormick

You also mentioned Trump, one of the most fascinating things that came out of the extradition hearing for me was the President Trump would offer Julian pardon. If he said that Russia had nothing to do with the leaked Hillary emails. But what is the background to this because…

John Shipton

I don’t know. That’s as much as I know with Dana Rohrabacher but witness testimony will be, so you’ll be able to hear the people who witness those offers at the full hearing in May, but that’s as much as I’m…. here.

Peter McCormick

Well I’ll be looking after that. So, how much progress was made in this first set of hearings? And as we move on to It’s May right the second round? Will we have a conclusion in May?

John Shipton

Well, yes. Judge Baraitser has given three more weeks to the hearing, I suppose it might run over a week. And then the judge will make her decision. The case is really Julian’s case is very, very strong. It’s an insurmountable burden for the prosecutor, having looked at both sides very carefully. So I imagine that Judge Baraitser will decide dependent upon certain circumstances, that Julian not be extradited.

Peter McCormick

You’re very confident will based on the case, but but are you confident that there isn’t untoward or pressure coming from other directions into decision?

John Shipton

Well, I’m sure I am certain that aspects of the colonial Foreign Office and the Crown Prosecuting Service would be chagrined deeply if Vanessa Baraitser decides not to extradite Julian, but the law is the law and I’m sure I feel certain that with the intensity of observers all over Europe, the intensity of observation by observers all over Europe, and the political circumstance where the government and Whitehall want to rewrite the extradition treaty because it’s unbalanced. I feel certain if those circumstances are obeyed, Julian will be not extradited will be free. Yeah.

Peter McCormick

It would certainly be a scar on the reputation of the United Kingdom.

John Shipton

Yeah, just this gives us an opportunity to have a look at something here. It’s really interesting that it’s in the interests of Europe publishes publications and journalists to ensure that Julian is not extradited. It’s their interests because as we’ve mentioned, they will be intimidated to publish information and have information to discuss amongst ourselves as the ordinary way to go about doing things the best ordinary way to go about doing this. Similarly, the United Kingdom has two profound areas to look at. One is that each year in the City of London, about a trillion dollars worth of contracts are made. And those contracts sometimes fall into dispute, and they are adjudicated in the English courts. If the English courts get themselves a reputation similar to the Swedish prosecuting authority, who is going to write contracts in the City of London, nobody, they’ll hesitate all the time. That’s one. The other profound area is that the conversations and knowledge the English people, they they sorry, people of United Kingdom. It depends upon what’s published in the newspapers and what’s published on the internet. If that is constrained, then they are unable to make decisions in their own, in their own interests, their interests subsumed into the preferences of Washington, our most unreliable circumstances, everybody knows that Washington is not agreement capable. They can’t make agreement that a mutual that sort of mutual interests. So in order to pursue your own interests, you just simply have to say, No, that’s all Julian won’t be extradited. And we will not have our publications and publishers intimidated by the fear of being judicially kidnapped or abducted.

Peter McCormick

So assuming, let’s make a confident assumption that Julian wins his case, he is freed. Will he ever really be a free man? Because my assumption is he’s always going to be pursued again and again, because I can’t see him ever stopping doing this work for Wikileaks right now, obviously, he’s, I don’t know any ability he has on any oversight of the work of Wikileaks right now. But my assumption is, is on release from prison, he would want to get straight back to work. I mean, you might tell me I’m wrong. But well, does he face a life of these attacks by state bodies forever?

John Shipton

Oh, you know, the more from a father’s point of view. Julian is made his gift is made his name has shown his capacities, it’s now time for him to rest and recuperate, which will take a couple of years. And I hope that you know, after say for example, taking up the humanitarian visa offered by Switzerland has specialized in these offered by Geneva, Kant on his special their speciality is in treating people who have undergone psychological torture, taking up that humanitarian visa, getting well again, doing ordinary things of life like seeing the kids attending birthday parties, just sitting in a cafe watching the passing parade, chatting, bit of gossip here and there. indulging in curiosity again, rather than constantly having to focus on this, that and the other to protect his life just ordinary things and then as a father, I imagine a professorship of some sort for five years might be very satisfying.

Peter McCormick

How do you think Julian, will be seen in future years? How will people look back on him? Do you think he will be ultimately seen as a hero? Or do you think he will always split opinion there’ll be those who see him as a hero and others that maybe still see him as a villain.

John Shipton

Well, that question is a good question allows us to develop some insight. The first thing is that the smearing and mobbing of Julian has been a deliberate policy of the United Nation states of the West, then, particularly the English speaking world, in particularly English speaking. And that has been done in order that the crimes So for example, in Collateral Murder, you see the helicopter pilots tow war crimes, not just one the first one…

Peter McCormick

The second one that was worse when he was crawling and when to pick them up on the van.

John Shipton

Yeah. And the two kids, two children in the van. Yeah. So that is the proper focus is the war crimes but authorities have changed the focus down to whether Julian is this or that and that smearing and mobbing is progressively losing its force as it emerges and fully emerges in the testimony in court and elsewhere what actually happened. So, Julian will be seen for what he did, and that is gift these gifts to us to utilize in whatever fashion, our energies and curiosity and tasks allow. I for my part, I think Julian will be amongst the proper nobility of the West. The proper nobility not inherited nobility, but the be an aristocracy of the Spirit, which will include Julian and many others who have fought to bring righteousness and truth and good governance.

Peter McCormick

I think that is a very good place to conclude this, but I will just ask just finally If people are interested in the case and want to find out more or want to support, Julian or yourself, how could they do that?

John Shipton

Well, my thing you know, we’ve run Assange campaign one word.org.au. But there was also campaigns in a localized in England. And that’s called DEA. I’ll text you Peter I can’t remember

Peter McCormick

I’ll put in the show.

John Shipton

Thanks, please.

Peter McCormick

No, no worries. Look, I’ve really enjoyed this. I wish you luck. I will pay close attention in May. I hope you get the outcome you desire. I have I hold hope I’d love to do this again with you sometime perhaps.

John Shipton

Yeah. Good Hope Peter that you do and look registers a journal. If you can. registers agenda come and give me a tap on the shoulder and I’ll find one of the family seats for you.

Peter McCormick

Please do yeah, I would love to I need to register as agenda anyway, I nearly got arrested when I was just out in Turkey I went up to the Greece border, and but on the way we got pulled over by the police, and they wanted credentials of being a journalist, and I didn’t have them. Luckily, my camera camera guy did. But I need to get registered now to protect myself because I’m doing some lunatic things without really thinking them through.

John Shipton

No well come along, you know, kind of say how vital it is that you guys put in an appearance.

Peter McCormick

Now I will do but I appreciate your time. But I would love to talk to you. I’ve got things I want to talk to you about outside of Julian. Okay, pick your brain. So hopefully we sometime later in the year we could do that.

John Shipton

Just give me a ring and I’m here.

Peter McCormick

Great. Thank you. Wish you all the best.

John Shipton

Thank you, Peter.

Peter McCormick

Thank you for listening to defiance. I hope you enjoyed this interview with john as much as I did as a fascinating Interview fascinating person. And at some point, I would actually like to just interview him himself about his own views on the world right now. I think he has some fascinating insights. But as he said to me right now, he’s trying to secure the release of Julian, and therefore that is what dominated the majority of the interview. But yes, I really enjoyed it. JOHN is fascinating. It’s it’s an incredibly important story to cover, and something I’m going to continue covering in the future and hopefully, I’m planning on being at Julian’s hearing in May so hopefully I will have some follow up interviews in relation to the case. Any questions you can reach out to me My email address is Peter at defiance dot news. Before we close out I do need to thank my sponsor kraken the best place to buy bitcoin consistently rated the best and most secure crypto currency exchange track and put the power in your hands to buy sell and trade Bitcoin. You can find out more at kraken.com, which is k r a k e n dot com. Also, if you want to support the show, please leave me a review on iTunes or subscribe to the show. Follow me on social media or share it out with your friends and family. If you have any questions about this show or any other show I’ve made, please feel free to email me on Peter at defiance dot news.

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1 Response to Interview with John Shipton from Defiance by Peter McCormack – Transcript

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